I also enjoyed an entertaining exchange with the author at his site. Eventually, I addressed some of his points in comments to his rebuttal. It was a very positive experience, to say the least.
So when no response was forthcoming from the author of the HANA blog piece I rebutted "here, I emailed him a link to his contact address as a board member on the HANA website.
(The return email was sent from his personal account, and so I didn’t consider it as coming from a representative of HANA).
He politely acknowledged the material at the link but without specificity. The extended discussion of funding that I desired seems unlikely to take place. Since no one else from HANA has shown any interest, I doubt that we’ll see those accepting dues under any of the conditions proposed by either myself or Mr. Pricci.
[Ed. Note: While there was a modicum of support for Indulto’s proposal at HRI, the response was extremely disappointing, especially considering the level of vitriol expressed here by horseplayers when they feel they are underappreciated. This is an example of the kind of indifference the industry has depended upon for years].
Resultantly, time may have arrived to consider an alternative to HANA; an organization that could utilize HANA’s expertise, if available, but with a more effective mission, structure, and a leadership that would have been determined in a more democratic fashion.
Despite having been launched at an interactive forum, HANA has not, to my knowledge, continued to promote real-time public discussion among ALL its members. There seems to be no way for non-board members to meet one another spontaneously, no outlet for independent, public discussion that others can participate in and expand the conversation.
I’ve heard rumors that a message board exists for HANA board members. Perhaps some non-board members have been invited to access it but I’ve never seen any specifics. The HANA blog allows comments, but each is delayed by required approval prior to being displayed.
Consequently, a membership has been created that generally can’t find out what other like (or unlike) minds they might be involved with, what issues are being addressed, what input has been provided, and whether it had been accepted or ignored.
Knowing the status of outstanding issues should not be a luxury but a requirement Does anyone else see this as an inhibitor to growth?
I believe that NOTHING WILL CHANGE to benefit the majority of non-professional bettors unless and until rank and file horseplayers are willing to come together to be counted – anonymously or otherwise -- to express our support for collective representation.
The first step is to prove to the industry that we are out there, IN THE AGGREGATE -- willing to collectively demonstrate our support for reform. How else can we help restore the previous levels of enjoyment and entertainment to the game in which we’ve spent a lifetime pursuing profit with passion under the assumption of fairness?
For that to occur, however, those currently involved in this process need to become more inclusive of others instead of being inhibited by what we’ll call the Internet Anonymity Fear Factor.
There seems to be an evangelical aspect to using one’s given name in cyberspace because I keep encountering some that do while demanding that others do the same; particularly anyone critical of their positions. Their contention is that it’s all too easy to criticize while "hiding" behind a pseudonym.
In our view, to assume that "who one is" is more important than "what one has to say," suggests an arrogance no less defeating than the apathy well-meant activism attempts to overcome.
Times have changed. Unlike the good old days when players were able to meet face-to-face with other like-minded activists at the local track, today’s issues affect horseplayers nationwide via not only brick-and-mortar simulcasts but by an increasing number of players preferring to bet on-line.
Pseudonyms do pose a challenge for those overly concerned with not saying the wrong thing to the wrong person. Is it any wonder that anonymous input providers are treated like lumberjacks in a sound-proof forest?
I wonder whether it’s easier to criticize anonymously or easier to ignore anonymous criticism. The Internet as communication medium is popular because it enables people to speak their minds without fear of off-line reprisals. Consider that the average non-celebrity or non-industry-employed horseplayer just might question sacrificing his privacy merely to provide legitimacy to a handful of bright but increasingly ignored individuals.
No ability yet has been demonstrated to effect changes critical to the majority of the represented. We now know that a volunteer think-tank/social club is not the ideal model to get horseplayers recruited and organized in large numbers. That model might suffice for what has been accomplished but not what’s been left undone.
Takeout: Killing the sport one customer at a time
The above sub-title came from an anonymous long-time advocate I’ve never met but who exemplifies my conviction that good ideas are more likely the product of sources without name recognition. Apathy is our worst enemy but arrogance is no more acceptable from within our ranks then from without.
If a horseplayer advocacy group ever does create an interactive forum for all its members, perhaps it should mandate the use of nicknames for public discussion and provide private messaging for personal conversations, including the exchange of identities or email addresses and the like if desired.
Let ideas speak for themselves. Enable the entire population to indicate their support for action on issues through frequent on-line polling. Leaders will emerge from the free exchange of ideas, confirmed via regularly scheduled on-line elections that would include a provision for funding dedicated for providing the necessary services in order to achieve results.
The preceding was the basis for a concept my friend, Vern, labeled SPARTACUS (Supporters of Player Action to Reduce Takeout for All Customers Uniformly in Stages) to reflect the concept of competitive equals rising up against existing corrupt controlling interests.
The idea was to create a gathering place for like-minded people willing not only to explore common objectives by debating merits and pitfalls but also to determine productive ways to deal with each other on different issues.
If an approach could be found to carefully craft well-conceived goals leading to consensus, leaders providing the most credible support for the majority positions would emerge and be recognized. Together these leaders could convert members and delegate authority for the good of all.
I’ve yet to hear a more practical way for the average horse-betting enthusiast to develop a voice too loud to be diluted by conflicting interests or dismissed entirely by the industry.
More people viewing and participating in on-line discussions would offer more opportunities to forge new friendships. A major concern is, of course, the cost to operate an Internet forum that accommodates in excess of 100,000 players.
Perhaps the founders of such a group could become stock-holders in a for-profit horseracing research data-base utility company providing revenue-generating access to test handicapping or wagering strategies, as well as to fulfill horse breeding, safety, and disposition queries.
Non-anonymous members could buy new shares if desired. Both anonymous and non-anonymous customers could also vote in matters pertaining to horseplayer advocacy; communicating on a forum supported by the aforementioned data-base operation.
Even with technology-experienced practitioners, funding is the primary obstacle to be overcome. What could entice a trusted name to step forward to get things under way? Unfortunately, anonymity doesn’t measure up in such circumstances. Neither does apathy.


24 Nov 2012 at 06:12 pm | #
The brightest minds who speak the truth will always meet with the greatest resistance from mediocre men with no vision.
TTT
24 Nov 2012 at 07:14 pm | #
Of course you’re right, T, but it’s just so damn dispiriting when well meaning people can’t engage even the most loyal of zealots.
25 Nov 2012 at 01:22 am | #
Who’s John Galt? Who is Indulto? Who are these guys?
At onetime Vic Zast was a contributor at HRI. I never understood his commentary, being a lowlife, inveterate gambler with a limited education; he was writing way over my head, apparently oblivious to the fact that the still existing horseplayers were well into their later life, most never having advanced beyond high school, intent only on trying to pick a winner or two daily.
I read the commentary above by the guy/gal hiding behind the nom de plume of Indulto. I understood very little, and I simply do not desire to go back through the commentary and sparse every sentence.
What I did cull from the verbiage, I think, was that using a pseudonym brought forth ideas equal to those who identified themselves. I, of course, think that anyone who won’t use their real name in commentary when the subject is horse racing does not want anyone to know that they are, in fact, involved with the disgusting, corrupt gambling venue patronized by lowlife drunks like me.
I did understand the takeout headline, which is dead wrong. Takeout has nothing to do with the decline in the popularity of Thoroughbred racing. In fact (attention Mr. Kling), the above commentary is preaching to the choir - to EXISTING, aging horseplayers. Do you actually believe that a reduction in takeout to, say, 10% will cause Jack and Jill on main street USA to suddenly turn right to the racetrack instead of left to the casino? Does racing need a reduction in takeout (for existing players) or a national marketing/advertising program to attract new players? Duh?
When the minority, not the majority of horseplayers today understand what takeout is, how is takeout a relevant issue in growing the ‘game’?
And remember, unless you pick winners, the takeout issue is, again, irrelevant!
Finally, after reading the comments of #1 and #2 above, I, and my group of sharpies, have concluded that I should have put more time into reading text books instead of the past performances.
25 Nov 2012 at 06:16 am | #
wmc,
You stand alone among all the I-must-know-your-name-even-if-I-never-see-your-face types I’ve encountered in cyberspace, with an attitude worthy of the soon-to-be-announced Keith Brackpool Award for horseplayer most appreciated by the racing industry.
Cyber-communication involves risk as well as reward. When one’s livelihood and/or off-line visibility doesn’t benefit from on-line recognition, the risk can outweigh the reward. Under some circumstances, anonymity can reduce that risk; usually when the problem is not so much what one is saying to whom, but rather who is listening that neither knows.
What you IMKYNEIINSYF folks ignore—or possibly can’t appreciate—is that the use of surnames not only expands the targets of Internet abusers to one’s family, but can also expose off-line associates with no involvement or interest in, or even awareness of, the on-line activity.
I believe that one needs to consider the source of the criticism on an individual basis, and whether said critic has consistently contributed relevance and credible opinions to past discussions. In any event, those who would benefit off-line from their visibility on-line shouldn’t be permitted to change the standard for normal to suit themselves at their convenience.
Clearly anonymous posters don’t belong in the same category as internet abusers and the IMKYNEIINSYF crowd should be more concerned with validity of criticism than with ease; especially when their results speak for themselves.
26 Nov 2012 at 01:54 am | #
Before I respond to the body of work above, let me quickly respond to the funding issue. HANA has always been free to its members. Any money that comes in is via donations from concerned horseplayers.
As someone on the HANA board, who has worked WITH Indulto on several projects, I find it disheartening that he continues to disparage HANA every chance he gets.
While we agree on the vast majority of issues, he continues to do more harm than good for a cause he claims to support.
Indulto said: When one’s livelihood and/or off-line visibility doesn’t benefit from on-line recognition, the risk can outweigh the reward.
I find the above quote to be the main reason why Indulto is a hindrance, rather than a help. I can assure you that my(and the rest of the boards) livelihood and/or off-line visibility hasn’t benefited one bit from being a part of HANA. I’ve usually found it to be quite the opposite, especially when dealing with industry types who don’t agree with the player point of view. The point isn’t to receive rewards. The point is that someone needs to stand up for the horseplayers, and nobody wants to work with a group of faceless avatars. There’s no way we would have made the progress we have if there weren’t names, phone numbers, and emails associated with each of us. Members of HANA, both on the board and not, have spent countless hours in face-to-face meetings and on conference calls with industry representatives. That’s how progress has been made. Maybe it’s too slow for your liking, but the progress that has been made wouldn’t have happened without real people being involved.
It’s too bad that Indulto thinks the risk of putting his name out in public outweighs the reward of working with his fellow horseplayers towards our common goals.
It’s too bad that Indulto prefers to tear down the group that is working on his, and all horseplayers behalf, rather than joining and attempting to make us better.
I guess the answer to your question is, no. No-one cares when bigfish123, ilovecats45, or even Indulto decides that they don’t think HANA is doing everything they want.
If you want to change something about HANA, come join us.
Thanks,
Charlie Davis
26 Nov 2012 at 01:33 pm | #
CD,
I’m glad you responded.
Your individual contribution to the player’s boycott was critical and deserves recognition for what it accomplished on behalf of all horseplayers. It was all the more significant as you’ve made it known publicly that you’re a rebated player, yet you (and some other members of HANA) were working to lower direct takeout in California for all their customers.
Even though our results were limited at that time, the framework you helped establish still exists for the next go-round once more players can be convinced to get involved. That you continue to work with others to monitor the effects of takeout is still appreciated by those who are aware that effort continues.
It certainly isn’t you, personally, at which my criticism is directed, but I cannot separate you from the collective result. Maybe you really think I tear HANA down at every opportunity, but I don’t, and I’m sure you never hear from others who can’t/won’t be bothered to try and change what they’ve come to believe is hopeless.
Speaking of which, have you ever addressed Mr. Dinkin’s commentary on the HANA blog?
While HANA shouldn’t be blamed for player indifference, neither should players find them offensive—even when on the defensive. It does seem that horseplayers would rather complain than act or come up with better ideas, but dismissing complaints and disparaging critics doesn’t go over well by representatives of either the industry or a component advocacy group.
I still think that one day a bunch as sharp as I know you guys/gals to be will focus on the need to recruit and delegate the authority to recruit and delegate even more authority until it’s clear that enough strength in numbers exists to improve the vision of the industry types who can’t see the player’s point of view. You may consider me a hindrance, but we both know lack of funding is a far greater one, and that HANA must be funded to realize its potential.
I was one of the original advocates for free membership as well as for anonymous membership. I’ve never said there wasn’t a need for face-to-face membership for negotiations and to fulfill legal requirements, in particular. In fact, I think they should be compensated, but to an increasing group of players I communicate with, that requires funding as well as authority that isn’t self-appointed and self-expanding.
The other side of the coin is that given the anonymous nature of the internet, I doubt any group that wants to represent a majority of players will attract sufficient numbers to join – or at least unique PCs to count – without tolerating many faceless/empty avatars among them. If such individuals are to be asked to participate in collective player actions, polled for opinions, and receive newsletters, free memberships with optional anonymity will have to be offered.
If a non-anonymous player wishes to participate as above, AND wants to vote on leadership and the setting of issue priorities—and is willing to accept task assignments—then he/she should be eligible for a dues-paying membership. Dues paying memberships could be extended to anonymous members demonstrably capable of completing new tasks when additional manpower is required.
Once progress can be demonstrated that needs funding to continue, I doubt many anonymous members would reject a call for temporary dues earmarked for that purpose. Have you considered polling the existing membership for potential changes in the existing structure?
I don’t mind your trying to weaken my arguments by diminishing me personally, but you should also know that my position is based on principles as strong as your own, and I will not be relieved of them through attempted embarrassment or harassment. I can take as good as I give and vice-versa, so future conversation would likely be more fruitful with less speculation on personal motives and a greater emphasis on real issues.
I don’t presume to speak for anyone else, but I doubt that HRI’s Executive Editor, Mr. Pricci, would publish my opinions if he didn’t think they had some merit. His avatar is not faceless, so if you are afraid of what you can’t see, you might try directing some of your commentary to him as well.
If I were a HANA insider, I would view this as an opportunity for HANA to make its case for the direction in which it plans to proceed, and potentially gain membership in the process. Of course you could also stick your collective heads in the sand, instead, and emulate the racing industry’s former behavior toward live TV coverage.
27 Nov 2012 at 10:19 pm | #
Sorry for the late response. Work has been busy.
I’ll post my response in a few, but wanted to see if I could use HTML to highlight your comments and my responses.
Testing now.
27 Nov 2012 at 11:22 pm | #
Brilliant, it works. Your comments in bold, and my responses in normal text.
Sorry, this ended up being very long winded.
It was all the more significant as you’ve made it known publicly that you’re a rebated player, yet you (and some other members of HANA) were working to lower direct takeout in California for all their customers.
While I am rebated, and am in favor of rebates, the main reason we need rebates is because takeout is too high. The much preferable method would be to lower ALL takeout. Failing that, I think rebates are the next best thing. I do think it’s ridiculous that depending on where you live you can/can’t get rebates, but hopefully one day we’ll all be betting into low takeout and we’ll all have an equal chance to win.
It certainly isn’t you, personally, at which my criticism is directed, but I cannot separate you from the collective result. Maybe you really think I tear HANA down at every opportunity, but I don’t, and I’m sure you never hear from others who can’t/won’t be bothered to try and change what they’ve come to believe is hopeless.
I don’t take any of it personally, and I fully deserve to be judged based on the collective results. I’m certainly not saying that you’re the only one who complains, but I think you have a unique platform here on HRI, and I think you use it to tear down rather than to support more often than not.
Speaking of which, have you ever addressed Mr. Dinkin’s commentary on the HANA blog?
Of course we have. We are currently, and constantly, working on ways to increase membership, increase funding, and show value and progress to our members with that funding. While we’re in the process of coming up with new approaches, we’re not going to discuss them. I think that’s a normal thing to do. We have a lot of ideas, some good and some not so good, and there isn’t much point in throwing out every idea before it’s vetted. We much prefer to take a little more time, and come up with solid, actionable plans. Let’s not forget that we’re all very busy with our jobs, and aren’t just sitting around twiddling our thumbs.
While HANA shouldn’t be blamed for player indifference, neither should players find them offensive—even when on the defensive. It does seem that horseplayers would rather complain than act or come up with better ideas, but dismissing complaints and disparaging critics doesn’t go over well by representatives of either the industry or a component advocacy group.
Since I’m still a relatively new horseplayer compared to most, I must admit that when I first joined HANA I was shocked at the indifference displayed by the horseplayer as a group. I expected the same type of involvement as the Poker Players Alliance received and was sorely mistaken. Unfortunately that’s the way it is, so we need to work with the players that are interested in getting involved.
What surprises me even more is the level of negativity I’ve personally seen from horseplayers. The people that we’re working hard to represent, are often our fiercest critics, yourself included. I contend that if everyone who has taken the time to complain about HANA, would take some time to improve HANA, we would be much further along than we are.
I would disagree that we have been dismissive or disparaged our critics. While we have disagreed at times, we also have learned and taken a lot from our critics. Andy Asaro is a great example. He’s one of the harshest HANA critics on a lot of issues, and we have disagreed quite often, but when it came to California, he and Roger were the ones to push the Players Pick 5 through.
You may consider me a hindrance, but we both know lack of funding is a far greater one, and that HANA must be funded to realize its potential.
No argument there. Funding, and how best to spend that funding, are items of utmost importance to us. I look at an organization like the NTRA, and with all of their funding, their attempts at lobbying have mostly failed. While we’re focused on getting funding, we are just as focused on having a plan on how to spend it in an intelligent, fruitful manner.
I was one of the original advocates for free membership as well as for anonymous membership. I’ve never said there wasn’t a need for face-to-face membership for negotiations and to fulfill legal requirements, in particular. In fact, I think they should be compensated, but to an increasing group of players I communicate with, that requires funding as well as authority that isn’t self-appointed and self-expanding.
If we even had just one of us who was able to work on HANA full-time rather than working full-time and spending whatever spare time they have on HANA, we would be much better off. That’s just not a reasonable proposition at this point. So the funding thing I agree with, and we have a lot of work to do, and have a lot of things in the works on that front. Your comments on authority don’t really make sense to me though. What authority do we have and what authority do we need? If you look at the Poker Players Alliance, you’ll see that they speak for all poker players. If you pay dues or don’t, if you agree with their position or not, they still speak for you. That’s how I view HANA. We’re going to speak up for the issues that our membership identifies, and that’s all. It’s the Horseplayers Association of North America not the HANA Board Members Association of North America. I think that quite often we’re viewed as just another alphabet agency in this industry when we’re actually just a group of concerned horseplayers that are focused on getting a seat at the table and doing all we can to improve the game.
I would argue that we have as much authority as horseplayers decide to give us. If they don’t get behind this idea of having representation, then we’ll continue to get run over by every other industry participant that does have a united(or even semi-united) front. If they disagree with the main points of HANA and want to start their own organization, then best of luck to them. We should all want the same thing here.
If a non-anonymous player wishes to participate as above, AND wants to vote on leadership and the setting of issue priorities—and is willing to accept task assignments—then he/she should be eligible for a dues-paying membership. Dues paying memberships could be extended to anonymous members demonstrably capable of completing new tasks when additional manpower is required.
I disagree. While anonymous members can certainly be capable and can certainly be helpful(like you have been in our dealings), no organization would let anonymous members vote. Just look at the PPA for a perfect example. If that was the case then what’s there to stop anyone from creating 10,000 dummy accounts and voting Frank Stronach as HANA president, Ray Paulick as VP, and Bob Baffert as Treasurer?
Once progress can be demonstrated that needs funding to continue, I doubt many anonymous members would reject a call for temporary dues earmarked for that purpose. Have you considered polling the existing membership for potential changes in the existing structure?
This is one of your ideas that definitely has merit in my opinion. Next time we run a poll I think this is a great idea. I think a way to improve on this would be to provide the poll along with the items that the funds would be spent on so that we have some measurable items to spend the funds on.
I don’t mind your trying to weaken my arguments by diminishing me personally, but you should also know that my position is based on principles as strong as your own, and I will not be relieved of them through attempted embarrassment or harassment.
I’ve no doubt that you firmly believe in what you’re writing, and I disagree that I tried to diminish you personally or attempted to embarrass or harass you. I think my tone was as respectful as it could be given our disagreement, and my closing point was simply that despite having some great ideas, your desire for anonymity diminishes your overall effect.
I don’t presume to speak for anyone else, but I doubt that HRI’s Executive Editor, Mr. Pricci, would publish my opinions if he didn’t think they had some merit. His avatar is not faceless, so if you are afraid of what you can’t see, you might try directing some of your commentary to him as well.
Again, I never said your ideas don’t have merit. I disagree with how you frame them, but quite a few of them have merit. I’m not afraid of what I can’t see, I just know that I put less weight in what I can’t see than what I can. You’re free to be as critical as you like, but it’s hard to take you seriously when I don’t know who you are.
If I were a HANA insider, I would view this as an opportunity for HANA to make its case for the direction in which it plans to proceed, and potentially gain membership in the process. Of course you could also stick your collective heads in the sand, instead, and emulate the racing industry’s former behavior toward live TV coverage.
The general direction that we plan to proceed in is listed on our website. We are focused on lowering takeout to optimal levels, pool integrity and availability, and uniform drug policies along with enforcement. As for the specifics, those change as situations arise, but we’re working on a more formal set of directions. We need to grow membership, we need to gain funding, and then we can do more.
I think our progress to this point, with our limited resources has actually been pretty good. I would hope that it would have earned us a bit of trust and patience.
29 Nov 2012 at 01:14 pm | #
You appeared to be on the brink of transparency, CD, so I apologize for not being able to get back to you right away. I’ll italicize those passages of your response I want to quote to differentiate them from your quoting me.
</i>“We are focused on lowering takeout to optimal levels, pool integrity and availability, and uniform drug policies along with enforcement. As for the specifics, those change as situations arise, but we’re working on a more formal set of directions. We need to grow membership, we need to gain funding, and then we can do more.”</i>
Optimal takeout levels for whom? States, tracks, ADWs, horsemen, horseplayers, any combination of the preceding stakeholders? What might be the impact on horseplayers in each case?
Have you set priorities on these issues? How were they determined? What percentage of the general membership supports those priorities or even know what they are?
</i>“While I am rebated, and am in favor of rebates, the main reason we need rebates is because takeout is too high. The much preferable method would be to lower ALL takeout. Failing that, I think rebates are the next best thing. I do think it’s ridiculous that depending on where you live you can/can’t get rebates, but hopefully one day we’ll all be betting into low takeout and we’ll all have an equal chance to win”</i>
Needed or not, rebates are only possible because takeout is too high. Perhaps you could answer the question “What is the next best thing for whom?”
I’m glad you agree that ALL players SHOULD HASVE an EQUAL chance to win. What I don’t understand is why that isn’t HANA’s priority. I believe it is why HANA is not attracting the numbers necessary to influence other stakeholders.
How can selective rebating ever be the best answer for the majority of players? How can optimal takeout be determined much less implemented while rebates continue?
By claiming to represent all players while supporting rebates, HANA sacrifices credibility, in my opinion.
</i>“Funding, and how best to spend that funding, are items of utmost importance to us. I look at an organization like the NTRA, and with all of their funding, their attempts at lobbying have mostly failed. <u While we’re focused on getting funding, we are just as focused on having a plan on how to spend it in an intelligent, fruitful manner</u>.”</i>
</i>“If we even had just one of us who was able to work on HANA full-time rather than working full-time and spending whatever spare time they have on HANA, we would be much better off. That’s just not a reasonable proposition at this point. Sothe funding thing I agree with, and we have a lot of work to do, and have a lot of things in the works on that front.”</i>
</i>“Your comments on authority don’t really make sense to me though.</i>
I was referring to the HANA board’s authority over its membership that leaves the latter about as relevant as the “Tonight show audience thrilled to be able to touch Jay Leno’s hand.
“</u>What authority do we have and what authority do we need?</u> If you look at the Poker Players Alliance, you’ll see that they speak for all poker players. If you pay dues or don’t, if you agree with their position or not, they still speak for you. That’s how I view HANA. </u>We’re going to speak up for the issues that our membership identifies, and that’s all. It’s the Horseplayers Association of North America not the HANA Board Members Association of North America</u>. I think that quite often we’re viewed as just another alphabet agency in this industry when we’re actually just a group of concerned horseplayers that are focused on getting a seat at the table and doing all we can to improve the game.”
I disagree, CD. What actually exists beyond the HANA Board Members Association of North America? According to your website contact page as of this writing, there are eleven individuals that a member might initiate contact with. How many people have joined since iHANA’s inception, and still remain in contact with at least one board member or state representative during the last 90 days? How many people have joined in the last 12 months? How many people were sent polling materials last time and how many responded? How would I find other HANA members who like to play the pick 6 or pick 5 that I might be able to partner up with once ADWs are willing to distribute tax liability among designated partners for other than the Players Pool?
Why aren’t the formations of legal player partnerships and more realistic withholding criteria for exotic bets less important to HANA than pool integrity issues? Why aren’t uniformity across states as to the deductibility of gambling losses from gambling winnings, and uniformity of being able to wager on-line from the privacy of one’s own home, more important to HANA than uniform medication policies – an issue which cannot be resolved without horsemen taking the lead.
</i>“I would argue that we have as much authority as horseplayers decide to give us. If they don’t get behind this idea of having representation, then we’ll continue to get run over by every other industry participant that does have a united(or even semi-united) front. If they disagree with the main points of HANA and want to start their own organization, then best of luck to them. We should all want the same thing here.”</i>
Let me make sure I have this right. HANA wants to represent horseplayers whether or not they agree with positions the board takes without confirmation of both those positions and their priorities; both of which may have changed since most members were signed up? If a member doesn’t like any part of the plank developed by the HANA board, he/she is welcome to go and start his/her own organization because the HANA Board knows best how to represent ALL horseplayers, even though you agree recruitment hasn’t been overwhelming to date?
Why not let HANA help make that a realistic alternative by announcing that the interests of existing and wannabe rebated players are indeed its main priority, and leave the field clear for unrebated players to seek other representation.
</i>“While we’re in the process of coming up with new approaches, we’re not going to discuss them. I think that’s a normal thing to do. We have a lot of ideas, some good and some not so good, and there isn’t much point in throwing out every idea before it’s vetted. We much prefer to take a little more time, and come up with solid, actionable plans. Let’s not forget that we’re all very busy with our jobs, and aren’t just sitting around twiddling our thumbs.”</i>
“I think our progress to this point, with our limited resources has actually been pretty good. I would hope that it would have earned us a bit of trust and patience.”
Do you ever trust input from members who aren’t on the board? If so, how do you determine their trustworthiness, particularly when a non-celebrity is new to all of you?
Why don’t you trust elections of board members by the membership?
“… my closing point was simply that despite having some great ideas, your desire for anonymity diminishes your overall effect.”
</i>“I just know that I put less weight in what I can’t see than what I can. You’re free to be as critical as you like, but it’s hard to take you seriously when I don’t know who you are.” </i>
Yet here you are, spending considerable time and effort responding.
“… no organization would let anonymous members vote. Just look at the PPA for a perfect example. If that was the case then what’s there to stop anyone from creating 10,000 dummy accounts and voting Frank Stronach as HANA president, Ray Paulick as VP, and Bob Baffert as Treasurer?”
What’s to stop ballot-stuffing using false first and last names?
It doesn’t make sense that either Stronach or Baffert would bother, but Paulick would make it an interesting race. While his candidacy could help add legitimate horseplayers to HANAS’s ranks, I doubt he could convince a voting majority that he would make a better horseplayer advocacy leader than any number of visible players associated with HANA at one time or another.
I guess if you folks want no part of high-profile individuals like them as well as no-profile people like me, HANA’s going to stay low-profile for the near future. So now that we know that “Be all that you can be” isn’t the motivating mantra here, what is?
I’m pleased the tone has remained mutually respectful despite our differences in determining effectiveness. I hope this exchange continues, but I fear the white rabbit has already disappeared down the rabbit hole.
29 Nov 2012 at 05:13 pm | #
Indulto, I believe your intentions are good but your methodology of calling out HANA in a public forum, not so much. You can achieve the same objective by challenging them privately.
HANA may not be perfect but they are all Horseplayers have at this point in time. There is no denying that they have raised the level of awareness of Horseplayers concerns and have achieved credibility in the eyes of some race tracks, associations and industry regulators.
In my dealings with the Ontario Racing Commission (ORC), I was challenged to prove my argument on the need to create an industry recognized and funded Horseplayer group was not just an ‘Eric’ opinion, but rather that of Horseplayers in general. I was able to do that with the support of HANA because in the eyes of the ORC they are a credible Horseplayer group. Without their support I may not have been able to get to the next level.
I believe HANA deserves and pat on the back for what they have accomplished to date as a group of volunteers.
30 Nov 2012 at 02:55 am | #
Optimal takeout levels for whom? States, tracks, ADWs, horsemen, horseplayers, any combination of the preceding stakeholders? What might be the impact on horseplayers in each case?
Optimal takeout is optimal takeout no matter the party involved. How it’s split up is the responsibility of the industry, but it doesn’t change the optimal takeout.
I’ll quote a fellow horseplayer who explained it this way: “Optimal takeout means maximizing revenue. There is only one takeout rate that will maximize revenue for a given “demand for X” over the long term. Zero will never be an optimal rate, it returns zero revenue...it is officially the least optimal takeout rate (it shares that honor with 100% takeout rate.)”
Have you set priorities on these issues? How were they determined? What percentage of the general membership supports those priorities or even know what they are?
We’ve quoted the survey results many times, and the vast majority of our membership supports the listed priorities. Our priorities match those of our membership.
Needed or not, rebates are only possible because takeout is too high. Perhaps you could answer the question “What is the next best thing for whom?”
Some players playing into lower takeout is better than no players playing into low takeout. It’s simple really, the more players playing into lower takeout the more handle which increases pool size which is good for everyone.
I’m glad you agree that ALL players SHOULD HAVE an EQUAL chance to win. What I don’t understand is why that isn’t HANA’s priority. I believe it is why HANA is not attracting the numbers necessary to influence other stakeholders.
So you think our number one priority should be to outlaw rebates rather than doing what we can to lower takeout to the level that rebated players are at? Do you understand that doing away with rebates will destroy handle? Do you know that my handle multiplied 5-fold when I started receiving rebates? That’s just a very bad idea in both the short and long-term and is not player friendly.
How can selective rebating ever be the best answer for the majority of players? How can optimal takeout be determined much less implemented while rebates continue? By claiming to represent all players while supporting rebates, HANA sacrifices credibility, in my opinion.
I didn’t say it’s the best answer. I said it’s better than everyone betting into high takeout. Rebates on their own prove that optimal takeout is too high based on handle volumes through rebate ADW’s. The only thing rebates have to do with optimal takeout is that they show that we haven’t reached it yet.
I disagree, CD. What actually exists beyond the HANA Board Members Association of North America? According to your website contact page as of this writing, there are eleven individuals that a member might initiate contact with. How many people have joined since iHANA’s inception, and still remain in contact with at least one board member or state representative during the last 90 days? How many people have joined in the last 12 months? How many people were sent polling materials last time and how many responded? How would I find other HANA members who like to play the pick 6 or pick 5 that I might be able to partner up with once ADWs are willing to distribute tax liability among designated partners for other than the Players Pool?
Why aren’t the formations of legal player partnerships and more realistic withholding criteria for exotic bets less important to HANA than pool integrity issues? Why aren’t uniformity across states as to the deductibility of gambling losses from gambling winnings, and uniformity of being able to wager on-line from the privacy of one’s own home, more important to HANA than uniform medication policies – an issue which cannot be resolved without horsemen taking the lead.
If you have to ask that kind of question then you haven’t been following any of our progress. Everything you mentioned is something we have in the past, or are currently working on. In order to get things done, we’re not able to update our membership every step of the way. We update our membership on some accomplishments, and we are a silent partner in others. If you’re not happy, come join us and speak up. We answer every question we receive from members.
Let me make sure I have this right. HANA wants to represent horseplayers whether or not they agree with positions the board takes without confirmation of both those positions and their priorities; both of which may have changed since most members were signed up? If a member doesn’t like any part of the plank developed by the HANA board, he/she is welcome to go and start his/her own organization because the HANA Board knows best how to represent ALL horseplayers, even though you agree recruitment hasn’t been overwhelming to date?
Why not let HANA help make that a realistic alternative by announcing that the interests of existing and wannabe rebated players are indeed its main priority, and leave the field clear for unrebated players to seek other representation.
No, you don’t have it right, and that’s a completely fictitious paragraph followed by a ridiculous suggestion. This is why I usually don’t respond to your HANA hit pieces. It always comes back to you not being happy with HANA, especially because you don’t get rebates, and yet not being willing to participate in any change. We would never make that announcement because it’s not true. You do know that not all of our board, and not all of our members receive rebates right?
Do you ever trust input from members who aren’t on the board? If so, how do you determine their trustworthiness, particularly when a non-celebrity is new to all of you?
Like I said before, we answer every question from members, and have had several decide to become state reps, come on conference calls to discuss issues, etc. See Eric’s post above for one example of our responding and assisting a member. I’m not going to respond to your “non-celebrity” question but I can say without reservation that we’ve always responded to, and at least attempted to help, our members.
Why don’t you trust elections of board members by the membership?
That’s how the corporation was originally setup. I’m sure it won’t be that way forever. It’s also not something that our members have ever asked about.
Yet here you are, spending considerable time and effort responding.
I guess that was just me being naive enough to think that you actually did care about horseplayers and were just being difficult about it. Lesson learned.
What’s to stop ballot-stuffing using false first and last names?
Let me just paste what I wrote the first time. no organization would let anonymous members vote
So now that we know that “Be all that you can be” isn’t the motivating mantra here, what is? I’m pleased the tone has remained mutually respectful despite our differences in determining effectiveness. I hope this exchange continues, but I fear the white rabbit has already disappeared down the rabbit hole.
The tone was mutually respectful until your latest response. Unfortunately in this response you’re back to putting words in my mouth and characterizing HANA as a bunch of rebated whales.
I’ve now spent entirely too much time responding to someone that claims to be pro-horseplayer yet wants to eliminate rebates, while at the same time belittling the volunteer organization that is actually doing something positive for the horseplayer.
I hope that my responses have at least answered some questions that HRI readers might have had. If anyone else has questions, our contact information is on the website along with survey results, takeout charts, etc.
30 Nov 2012 at 10:59 am | #
First, my apologies to those HRI readers trying to read my last response to CD. My editing session was interrupted for some reason that also resulted in a premature submission of the text I was editing. Consequently some HTML pair leading tabs contain slashes that shouldn’t. Also the sentence beginning with “Why aren’t the formations …” should read “Why are the formations …”
Mr. Poteck.
Thank you for responding. I’m in awe of your accomplishments as an individual as I am of those of Messrs. Davis, Tower, and Platt whose contributions to players I’ve actually been exposed to on several occasions.
From your articles published on the HANA blog, I sense that you also value transparency. Unfortunately issues discussed in private are seldom explored on both sides to the extent they are in public.
When HANA retreated from a public forum to private meetings, the result was that not all important discussions and debates saw the light of day, and ideas, concerns, and contributions sometimes fell by the wayside in the absence of wider input.
Indeed, after much criticism, the board meetings of the New York Racing Association will now be open to the public. Shouldn’t board meetings of HANA also be open for its membership to follow as well, if only through minutes?
I agree that HANA is all horseplayers have, and it certainly has accomplished things as a group for which I am personally grateful. That includes the raising of awareness of both takeout and equine retirement, and representing player interests before the California Horse Racing Board as well as California horsemen and track operators when the need arose.
Aside from the areas of interest to me, HANA would be able to accomplish more with respect to all issues important to them if they were freer with information regarding their activities and kept its membership in the loop.
I disagree that the value of my approach doesn’t match my intentions. I witnessed HANA founders energetically, enthusiastically, and inclusively bootstrap themselves into an organization that raised hopes for many. That hope languished without feedback when evolving leadership chose exclusivity and silence for its mode of operation. The closest analogy I can think of is George Orwell’s “Animal Farm.”
I would be remiss if I too chose the path of silence that enabled any component of racing to increase its benefits and/or influence at the continued expense of recreational bettors, even when that includes other horseplayers.
Who would know better than you how lonely the road to reform can be?
Respectfully,
Indulto
30 Nov 2012 at 12:01 pm | #
CD,
Lots of food for thought.
“Some players playing into lower takeout is better than no players playing into low takeout. It’s simple really, the more players playing into lower takeout the more handle which increases pool size which is good for everyone.”</i>
We’ll have to agree to disagree. All players playing into low takeout is better than some players playing into low takeout at the expense of the remainder.
“So you think our number one priority should be to outlaw rebates rather than doing what we can to lower takeout to the level that rebated players are at? Do you understand that doing away with rebates will destroy handle? Do you know that my handle multiplied 5-fold when I started receiving rebates? That’s just a very bad idea in both the short and long-term and is not player friendly.”
I expect that agreement must be reached to simultaneously eliminate rebates and lower direct takeout for all. It would seem that multiple currently active venues would have to both lower direct takeout rates and raise signal fees for that to occur. It would also seem that the initial lower direct rates could not match the existing lowest effective level for rebated players until handle levels at the new rates could support them. Purses may have to be adjusted temporarily for field size and handle attracted to make it all work. Not an easy sell, but it’s the right product.
”Optimal takeout is optimal takeout no matter the party involved. How it’s split up is the responsibility of the industry, but it doesn’t change the optimal takeout.
I’ll quote a fellow horseplayer who explained it this way: “Optimal takeout means maximizing revenue. There is only one takeout rate that will maximize revenue for a given “demand for X” over the long term. Zero will never be an optimal rate, it returns zero revenue...it is officially the least optimal takeout rate (it shares that honor with 100% takeout rate.)”
So then optimal takeout could be determined for each pari-mutuel pool for every event (with specific conditions and field size). Experimentation should start with the largest pools. A workable balance must be struck between handle, takeout, purses, operations, and taxes.
“I didn’t say it’s the best answer. I said it’s better than everyone betting into high takeout. Rebates on their own prove that optimal takeout is too high based on handle volumes through rebate ADW’s. The only thing rebates have to do with optimal takeout is that they show that we haven’t reached it yet.”
That was funny, but the real answer is that rebates provide optimal takeout for those receiving the biggest ones. You’re ignoring the fact that racing’s popularity and stability was optimal when the playing field was level. You can say you’re for the player, but even some at HANA have acknowledged that the disparity in takeout continues to drive existing players out of the game and inhibiting new ones from entering.
“If you have to ask that kind of question then you haven’t been following any of our progress. Everything you mentioned is something we have in the past, or are currently working on. In order to get things done, we’re not able to update our membership every step of the way. We update our membership on some accomplishments, and we are a silent partner in others. If you’re not happy, come join us and speak up. We answer every question we receive from members.”
Can you not see that this is different from inspiring people to think about issues because you’ve prompted them to do so, and then enabled them to provide meaningful input prior to you’re making a decision without it?
Do you and your colleagues have any level of awareness of the arrogance some perceive in the last four sentences of your passage, particularly among older players who (unlike me) have strong life experience tempered by good common sense?
“No, you don’t have it right, and that’s a completely fictitious paragraph followed by a ridiculous suggestion. This is why I usually don’t respond to your HANA hit pieces. It always comes back to you not being happy with HANA, especially because you don’t get rebates, and yet not being willing to participate in any change. We would never make that announcement because it’s not true. You do know that not all of our board, and not all of our members receive rebates right?”
For the record, I’m against rebates not because I can’t get them, but because they unfairly tilt the playing field against non-rebated bettors. I did support the attempt by Ian Meyers’ to get his openly-rebating ADW into California because I believed that would eventually lead to equal effective takeout for all. (I would have used that service despite not expecting to qualify for any rebate.) It never came to fruition and I have never received a rebate.
HANA’s policy against anonymous participation has changed the way I look at the world. Participating non-anonymously in HANA would be impossible for me now until members generally are allowed to once again participate anonymously.
The game is entertainment for most who play it, and state secrets are not involved. Strategy is limited to a function of numbers and timing. Unless HANA’s silent-partnering involves providing its proprietary data, why isn’t it treated as consulting work for those involved? If there were nothing other than advocacy being conducted, you could open things up internally and be just as effective externally. Instead it sounds as if a collective version of “Pinky and the Brain” has been created.
“That’s how the corporation was originally setup. I’m sure it won’t be that way forever. It’s also not something that our members have ever asked about.”
No comment.
I guess that was just me being naive enough to think that you actually did care about horseplayers and were just being difficult about it. Lesson learned.”
I should probably let this one go, but I care about horseplayers who play the game for the fun of it. I enjoy seeing others win and it’s fine with me if some can make a living at it, but not when things are stacked in their favor. If anyone was naïve, it was me thinking there were horseplayers getting rebates who would actually welcome a fair set of rules that produced greater liquidity! It’s really having an edge that’s the turn-on, isn’t it?
“The tone was mutually respectful until your latest response. Unfortunately in this response you’re back to putting words in my mouth and characterizing HANA as a bunch of rebated whales.”
“I’ve now spent entirely too much time responding to someone that claims to be pro-horseplayer yet wants to eliminate rebates, while at the same time belittling the volunteer organization that is actually doing something positive for the horseplayer.”
Your time was well-spent, CD. I’m sure you got the message(s) out that you wanted, and I enjoyed the exchange.
I hope that my responses have at least answered some questions that HRI readers might have had. If anyone else has questions, our contact information is on the website along with survey results, takeout charts, etc.”
HRI readers who haven’t yet visited the HANA Blog, the HANA website and/or playersboycott.org are in for a treat, if they take the time to do so.
Mr. Davis may no longer be as kindly disposed toward me as he once was, but he’s one of the good guys and a serious players’ advocate to boot.
10 Dec 2012 at 08:20 am | #
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